Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, the Shallan-Adolin ship went sailing on the high seas, with curiosity and… unaccustomed frankness, shall we say? This week, Adolin is repeatedly disturbed by people and events which are beyond his power to affect; it’s a rough evening for our boy.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 50: Uncut Gems
Point of View: Adolin
Setting: the Storm Cellar, the Kholin complex
Symbology: the Duelist, Palah
IN WHICH Adolin waits out the highstorm in the men’s bunker of this Storm Cellar; he speaks briefly to Elit about their upcoming duel and is snarled at for his pains; Sadeas strolls over to taunt him, and it very nearly works; Adolin’s response earns the approval of his bridgeman guard; he wanders through the markets, idly considering the earlier events of the day and the future event of tomorrow’s meeting with the Parshendi; as he returns to the Kholin domicile, he finds the bridgemen-guards in a bit of a turmoil over a new set of glyphs scratched into the sitting-room floor; Dalinar assumes responsibility for them, presumably part of his vision-trance, and Navani seems to agree; the end date of the countdown is duly noted.
Quote of the Week
Sadeas smiled again. “Do you think me an evil man, Adolin?”
“That’s too simple a term,” Adolin snapped. “You’re not just evil, you’re a selfish, crem-crusted eel who is trying to strangle this kingdom with his bulbous, bastard hand.”
“Eloquent,” Sadeas said. “You realize I created this kingdom.”
“You only helped my father and uncle.”
“Men who are both gone,” Sadeas said. “The Blackthorn is as dead as old Gavilar. Instead, two idiots rule this kingdom, and each one is—in a way—a shadow of a man I loved.”
A selfish, crem-crusted eel. Nice one, Adolin. Very accurate as well as eloquent. Sadeas, how I love to hate you. Vile wretch.
Commentary
Oh, hey, look! It’s an Adolin chapter! Hope you didn’t wear out the subject last week… (Seriously – that was amazing! I was gone on a mini-vacation with family and friends for three days, and I had major reading to do to catch up with y’all!)
This week we’re in Adolin’s head in the aftermath of his date with Shallan, and I have to revisit that subject very quickly. He’s very pleased that “this thing with Shallan” seems to be working, because she’s marvelous, exotic, witty, and not smothered in Alethi propriety. (Would that infer what we’d call “Victorian propriety” or “Alethi social expectations of behavior?” I suspect the latter. We can discuss the implications in the comments.) Also, he thinks that she’s smarter than he is but doesn’t make him feel stupid – and it’s implied that it’s rather an Alethi thing for the women to make sure the men know how much “smarter” they are.
I find myself deeply irritated by Vorin tradition. Adolin is not at all sure the betrothal will continue to work, since his relationships always work at first and fall apart later. Add to that the “she didn’t make him feel stupid” comment, and it makes me want to smack Alethi society at large. Any man who is reasonably intelligent but has a very limited education because “it’s not manly” would have to be very frustrated by all the well-educated women who confuse “uneducated” with “unintelligent” and correspondingly treat men like idiots. Even if it’s a subconscious irritation, it’s got to be there. (As a student of literature, I’m delighted with the relatively subtle inversion of expectations. As an observer of pop culture, it reminds me far too much of the typical sitcom and advertising trope where men are assumed to be stupid and incompetent, and only manage to survive by virtue of possessing an intelligent wife/girlfriend. GRRR.)
So here sits Adolin. For once in his life, he’s had a conversation with a woman who assumes that he’s intelligent enough to understand what she’s talking about. Even when she was being witty at his expense, she invited him in to the fun rather than making him the butt of it for others. IMO he was complimented by both of those, and it’s probably the first time in his life that’s happened. No wonder his relationships never last beyond a week or two.
Okay, back to the chapter. It opens with Adolin tossing a mild taunt or two at Elit about the seven-day wait for their upcoming duel; this is followed almost immediately by Sadeas throwing a couple of veiled taunts at Adolin about his overt flouting of the king’s—and Dalinar’s—authority. For a minute I wondered why Sadeas’s taunting bothered me so much more than Adolin’s, and if I was just being biased, but I don’t think that’s it. Not all of it, anyway. Elit has a legitimate means of getting back at Adolin: they’re dueling in two more days, and it was Elit’s choice to set the uncommonly long delay in the timing. Sadeas, on the other hand, is goading Adolin deliberately, knowing perfectly well there’s nothing Adolin can do about it without both undermining Dalinar and getting himself in horrible trouble.
Speaking of which… foreshadowing again.
A small part of him wished for Sadeas to provoke him, push away his inhibitions, drive him to do something stupid. Killing the man right here, right now, would likely earn Adolin an execution—or at least an exile. It might be worth either punishment.
Sadeas does his unholy best to provoke: pointing out the uncut gemstones on his ring and his coat, gained by doing an unauthorized plateau run in open contempt of Dalinar’s orders; making smart remarks about his “former property” who are now patrolling the markets; renouncing Elhokar’s appointment of him as Highprince of Information – and clearly indicating that no one else will accept any similar appointments from Elhokar; sneering at both Dalinar and Elhokar; hinting that neither of them will survive when Sadeas makes his move; and outright telling Adolin that “you’ll understand and agree with me eventually.”
Adolin managed to keep himself under control. He refrained from doing any physical violence that could get him in trouble, but at the same time he made it eminently clear that he was opposed to Sadeas in every way. I’m still wondering which of those gained him Skar’s nod of respect.
I just have to toss in a couple of other odd notes. One is Adolin’s realization that there is a parshman among the bridgemen, wearing a guardsman uniform and holding a spear. It’s funny in context (since we know why “Shen” is there) and heartbreaking in another (since we know why Rlain is there). When he points it out to Dalinar, he’s all, “Yeah, it’s cool. I was curious what would happen.”
The other thing is one that was mentioned last week in the discussion: Adolin’s Blade. I have to just quote the whole passage:
Adolin summoned his Blade, then dismissed it, then summoned it again. A nervous habit. The white fog appeared—manifesting as little vines sprouting in the air—before snapping into the form of a Shardblade, which suddenly weighed down his hand.
Brandon has confirmed that the “little vines” are because the Blade was originally an Edgedancer’s spren. While this is the only time I can find that someone’s Blade-summoning is described in this much detail, I’m not yet convinced that the process itself is significantly different than anyone else’s. It’s generally described as mist coalescing into the silvery Blade.
Stormwatch
True Stormwatch event in this chapter:
“Thirty-two days. Seek the center.”
“Seek the center.” I like the way the two drivers for the upcoming expedition dovetail. Dalinar, the soldier & highprince with the authority, is getting magically-delivered instructions to seek the center of the Shattered Plains. Shallan, the well-on-her-way magic user with the ability to find and operate the target, is getting instructions from research and old stories to search out the ancient city of Stormseat that used to be in the center of Natanatan. Sneaky.
Note, also, that Navani has counted out the countdown, and the end date is in the middle of the Weeping, rather than being the date of a highstorm as Dalinar hoped. It is also two days before the end of the year, and there just doesn’t seem to be any significance to the date at all. I guess she’ll just have to wait and see…
Ars Arcanum
We don’t know it yet, of course, but we’re seeing extremely accurate Truthwatching from Renarin and Glys right here.
Does anyone still seriously believe that Dalinar did this without realizing it? I know Dalinar takes the blame here, though of course he doesn’t remember doing it. This is totally inconsistent with his previous experience in the visions, where he could remember everything that happened. As he says himself, this is an awkward way for him to get the information; if it’s coming to him from the Stormfather, why could it not be included in the visions? Why would it be sent to his subconscious for him to scratch it into the ground, or the wall? The most logical answer, despite his assumption, is that it’s not coming to him – and certainly not from the same source as the visions. Honor even told him, in so many words, that he wasn’t much good at seeing the future. Cultivation, on the other hand, is… and Truthwatchers are directly in the center of the Cultivation side of the circle.
But of course they don’t know about that stuff yet, so Renarin’s activity goes unnoticed, and Dalinar assumes the responsibility for it.
Heraldic Symbolism
Palah is the Herald of the Truthwatchers. That is all.
Okay, it’s not quite all. Because Palah: Scholar, Learned/Giving, Truthwatchers, Emerald, Pulp, Wood/Plants/Moss, Hair is on this chapter arch twice. Once might be for Sadeas and his stinking uncut emerald gems, but the other has to be for Renarin the Truthwatcher. So say I.
Words of Radiants
And now, if there was an uncut gem among the Radiants, it was the Willshapers; for though enterprising, they were erratic, and Invia wrote of them, “capricious, frustrating, unreliable,” as taking it for granted that others would agree; this may have been an intolerant view, as often Invia expressed, for this order was said to be most varied, inconsistent in temperament save for a general love of adventure, novelty, or oddity.
–From Words of Radiance, chapter 7, page 1
Willshapers. We really don’t know much about them, do we? Their Surges are Transportation (motion, Realmatic transition) and Cohesion (strong axial interconnection); we know guess a fair bit about the first one, but I’ve heard very little explanation of the second. In any case, they appear to be the adventurers – but they also are associated with the Builder (Kalak). I do suspect the epithets of “erratic, capricious, frustrating, and unreliable” are artifacts of people who really, really don’t understand what drives them as an Order.
(Just in case anyone cares, I’ve officially given up my expectation that Adolin would be a Willshaper, and now hope that he’ll become a real Edgedancer so he can awaken his Blade.)
Shipping Wars
Wow, last week’s wars were really something! Carry on, carry on.
Just Sayin’
“Shalashian temperament” as an excuse to renounce your post as Highprince of Information, eh? What’s that supposed to mean?
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when Adolin ventures forth disguised as Dalinar to meet with Eshonai. This should be rich…
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. WorldCon 2015 is next week, and she is very much looking forward to meeting some of you there. Go find her at Registration, any morning between 8:30 and 12:30.
What great foreshadowing of Adolin’s murder of Sadeas. I wonder if he’ll be caught by the Alethi, or if Nale and Szeth…
Does anybody have any theories as to what characteristics of Honor would make him not good at seeing the future whereas Cultivation is better at seeing the future? The only thought I have is that as a trait, cultivation requires some sense of future planning. For example, one type of cultivation could be farming. The farmer needs to understand how future weather patterns (i.e. the seasons) will impact the timing of his or her planting and harvesting cycle. Farming is not an activity that can be done successfully without some long term planning. On the other hand, honor seems to be a characteristic of the present. Something or someone is honorable at the moment. One does usually decide that he or she will be honorable in 6 months.
I doubt it can be that simple. I am curious as to what others think.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Sadeas implied plans of reagicide and a second attempt on High Prince Dalinar’s life.
Honestly I think Adolin over-estimated the danger he would have been in had he offed Sadeas right then and there. Especially compared to if he gets discovered now having done the deed with no witnesses.
He’s assuming that room full of vipers would have looked at the situation with the same sort of interest in honor and honesty as he and his father would.
Seriously all he would have had to do is yell “You plan to kill the king?! Traitor!” Then promptly stab him.
It’ true there would surely be a trial of some sort, but given Sadeas’s reputation and Elhokar’s own paranoia against assassins, the exaggeration (because let’s face it wouldn’t have been an outright lie) would be believed enough that it would probably have ended with clemency.
Anyone who might normally side against the “weak” and “un-alethi” Kohlin father and son in the trial would see in Adolin’s actions a new “Blackthorn” and be too scared to act against him.
Taking down a “weak and merciful” Dalinar who has “lost his edge” is one thing. Taking on a young and powerful Adolin who’s not even afraid to kill the second most powerful man in the Kingdom in a room full of people? That is quite another.
Have I ever mentioned how sick the Vorin/Alethi culture makes me feel. Pyschotic bastards.
@3: Wcarter – it does strike me often how “survival of the fittest” really has strong implications in Alethi culture. But there are a number of aspects of Vorin teachings that make me uncomfortable. The ability to be literate being restricted to one gender a major one. The division of jobs is another.
@Braid_Tug the absolute gender divides in literacy and other things makes Roshar one of the few fantasy worlds I’m glad I can’t visit.
Aaaaaah part 3 has to be my favorite part of WoR. I don’t have to wonder for very long as to why I disliked part 4 so much: it was a crude disappointment, after reading so much Adolin’s POV to lose him for several hundred of pages. As a come-back to last week (or this morning even) discussion, I am glad I was not the only one who suffered from not having his thoughts in part 4, especially following the bridge assassination attempt.
As for wearing down the subject of Adolin? How could that ever be possible… I have lost the count of how many Adolin discussions I have stumbled upon since the release of WoR in every corner of the fandom: not bad at all for a side character, though admittedly one with many POV.
There are a few things I was waiting for this chapter to arrive to say, but let’s start with the beginning.
Adolin likes the fact Shallan is smart without making him look stupid. I agree with your commentary, Alice, stating this quote gives us an insight as to what may have happened with many of these failed courtships… Adolin was taken for a fool and he did not like it, but in order to try to play the part, he has started to act dumber than he truly was. However, it had the pernicious effect of having him close-out on the girl and not allowing himself to actually get attached to her, hence the wandering eyes looking out for a better prospect… one who would actually love him. I feel sorry for him here because this long trail of failures had taken its tow on him, to the point where he expects this new one with Shallan to fail, because they always do. He seems completely powerless to stop the curse as he does not comprehend why it keeps happening.
This thing with Shallan, it was working. It always worked at first though, so he contained his enthusiasm.
So here. Adolin is far from the poster boy of self-confidence he parades as. He is containing his enthusiasm as he fears it may not work despite a very promising first date. He does not have confidence it will work, why would he? He never does.
On the side notes, to echo Alice’s comment on well-educated Alethi women confusing “uneducated” with “unintelligent”, I believe the fandom is a times guilty of doing the same… How many commentaries have said Kaladin was the smarter man? How many believes his mind is more suited to Shallan’s simply because his education makes him appear more intelligent? How many comments have been made stating Adolin is a shallow dumb jerk? Imo, I am not necessarily referring to comments read on the Tor.com reread, but also on comments made on other discussion threads, elsewhere.
What else is there to conclude that educated readers are indeed confusing Adolin’s obvious lack of education with a lack of intelligence? The same way readers are taking Kaladin for a scholar simply because he was privy to an education Adolin didn’t receive, despite being a prince. What do we know of he Kholin boys education? It was given by Kadash, the former soldier ardent, and it tackled mostly history of Vorinism, a subject Adolin found profoundly boring… So here. How would he have done had he been sent into our modern day schooling system? This is left to be seen.
The Sadeas scene now… Well, for my part I read as deliberate provocation from Sadeas and worst: he blatantly tells Adolin he will not only kill his father and the king, but he’ll, ultimately, turn him into an ally. In other words, he is saying: “Boy, I will kill your father and you will agree with me.”. Wow. That was provocation and he sure deserved much worst than a simple threat. I have been wondering if this scene will come into play once Adolin’s role in Sadeas’s death becomes known. We have this bridgeman (Alice are you sure it was Skar? I have always though it was Teft because it says “the one with the silver at his temples”) who not only heard everything, but openly approved. This part, I believe is important. Brandon let us know the guard heard the threats. Adolin called it treason, but he was powerless to act. No, he reigned himself in order to respect his father’s code, but it was treason. Teft has been around: I am sure he knows treason when he hears it. Therefore, when young Adolin is put to the gutter for having killed Sadeas, who’s to say the bridgemen won’t step in as witness of threats being issued towards the Kholin household? They are the witness: they heard it, they saw it. They didn’t see the event that let to Sadeas’s death, but what they have seen is more than enough: he spoke treason, he said he would kill the king…. Adolin is not without allies in this whole story, I believe.
The Blade now… The famous passage that fueled the Edgedancer theory. I agree with you Alice, Brandon did not go into the detail for the summoning of any other Blades, which makes it obvious he wanted the readers to make the link. Shortly after, he gave us the Lift interlude. This was deliberate, Brandon is way too smart for it not to be deliberate. He also answered the WoB which implies he intended readers to figure it out. Therefore, the fact Adolin’s Blade was an Edgedancer’s spren is relevant to the story, somehow. Perhaps not as we all hope it will, but it is relevant.
I also noted how uncomfortable Adolin is with the glyph scratching issue. He is clearly being disturbed by it, summoning and dismissing his Blade, a nervous tic. Another neat addition: Adolin has a nervous tic and it involves the Blade. It fits beautifully with the young man who needs to go through a ritual to get the proper mindset before a duel, the young man who’s heart is beating so fast he gets his Blade seconds before his opponent on an easy duel… Another clue. Adolin is naturally nervous, but he tends to hide it well, except in this passage.
Other interesting passages in this chapter that weren’t broached:
He should have felt safe in this bunker of rock, but there was something about storms that undercut any sense of security, no matter how rational. He’d be glad for the Weeping, and the end of the highstorms for a few weeks.
Later on..
Dalinar was a rock, a boulder too big for even storms to move. He seemed so sure. It was something to cling to.
Am I the only one who noticed Adolin does not like the highstorms? This is not the first nor the last time he comments on his unease during them… He almost seems afraid of them, which differs widely from both Shallan and Kaladin who are attracted to them. I have been wondering what it meant.
The last bit is quite endearing… Adolin is not comfortable with the storms, nor is he comfortable with the visions or the wall scratching issue, but he looks up to his father as something to clink to, something solid. We know Adolin loves Dalinar, we know he worships him, but this passage undeniably made me think of the little boy who still sees his father as the strongest of them all… Cute, in a way, but there is just something about Adolin we are not quite getting thus far… So many scratches here and there, so many hints, yet so little confirmation.
Gepeto @6 – Skar is described in WoR Ch. 2 thus: “The short, wiry man had sharp features and silvering hair at the temples, despite being in his early thirties.” Teft, when we meet him in TWoK Ch. 11: “The man was older, with drooping cheeks, brown eyes, and close-cropped, white-salted hair. His beard was short, and he didn’t have a slave mark.” To me, “the one with the silver at his temples” sounds more like Skar than Teft.
In either case, it’s a valid point that they were witnesses to Sadeas’s words.
Along with what wcarter said @3, there’s a nice implication that just maybe, it won’t work out the way Adolin (and we) tend to expect. I hope you’re correct! Another supporting factor is Sadeas’s sneering reference to Adolin’s guards: he sees them as “my former property” and still thinks of them as slaves and/or criminals. Dalinar, on the other hand, sees them as valuable and trustworthy soldiers – especially those from Bridge Four that Kaladin chose as the ones to guard the Kholin family. Sadeas was clearly speaking for Adolin’s ears, not the entire room, though he’s sufficiently self-confident that he didn’t seem to mind the possibility that others would hear him speaking of an extended civil war, and referring to Adolin making “a fine highprince in the coming months.” It seems that it never occurred to him that his “former property” could be considered witnesses for Adolin if something did happen, like Adolin reading that statement as an immediate threat against Dalinar and Elhokar.
I’m really wondering, though – was he seriously hoping to goad Adolin into an attempt on his life in this very public place? or was he counting on Adolin’s self-restraint?
@7 Oh damn. I guess I missed Skar’s description as I have always filed Teft as the one with grey hair… Based on the description you have given, it indeed seems as if it was Skar. Anyway, either one of the two, the discussion remains. It is neat though the one bridgeman who openly approved of Adolin’s behavior ends up being on of the two rescuing him at the end of WoR.
I certainly think the bridgemen will play a role in Adolin’s ordeal. Let’s be frank, if there are soldiers among the army who would respond positively to Adolin murdering Sadeas, it is them. His behavior all through the book seem to have earn him their respect. It is not far-fetched to think they would try to help him, especially since Skar witnesses Sadeas muttering open threats to Adolin. It is clear Adolin had not spoken of the encounter to his father, probably because he was not proud of his answer and also due to the fact his mind immediately got taken away on the matter of the glyph scratching on the walls. I doubt Brandon took care to include Skar (and he did give us enough clue to have us identify this random guard even if I did it wrong, we were still suppose to figure out who it was) nodding his approval if it meant nothing down the road.
As to your questioning pertaining Sadeas’s intentions, I think he may have been trying to sway the young man to his cause. I had always read this scene as Sadeas attempting to turn Adolin against his father or perhaps I misread and he did try to have him lose control in a public place. Either way, Sadeas had been going for Adolin for a while now. He had long since identify him as the weakest Kholin link and he felt he could get to Dalinar through the son… Either by having the son turn against his father or have him kill… though when he did send assassins, they aimed Dalinar not Adolin. So what was Sadeas truly after? I am unsure… There is also the matter of this letter Ialai received towards the end bearing great news… What was it? Grim truth about the Davar family?
I believe that in Vorin society, a darkeyes cannot be a witness against a lighteyes. We see it later when Kalladin ends up in jail for accusing s lighteyes.
So essentially the only one that mattered that heard the treason was Adolin.
Perhaps they cannot be used as witnesses through a trial, but the fact they witness Sadeas going for his son may soften Dalinar…………… and if Dalinar soften, he may be more prone to listen to the arguments brought forward to help protect his son. He may stop thinking he needs to go hard to prove his dedication to his codes as if former Highprince Sadeas had been threatening Adolin and uttering threats against the king, then the situation changes dramatically.
@@@@@ Several
I doubt Sadeas thought Adolin might try to kill him because of the goading, the man wants to live forever not be a martyr. Otherwise he wouldn’t have done it later in private–which did cost him his life. I don’t believe Sadeas ever planned to fight either Adolin or Dalinar in any sort of fair one-to-one fight.
My guess is he was counting on Adolin either taking it–thereby embarrassing him and his father by making him look “weak” or striking at him–thereby embarrassing Adolin and his father by getting him fined and temporarily jailed for attacking a high prince.
In Sadeas’s diseased mind either way he wins.
If Adolin had yelled out “treason” or some such then outright killed him, no one in the room would have dared dispute him whether or not they heard exactly what Sadeas said (again it would fit in with their ideals of boldness and machismo the Alethi high society prize so much). And they definitely wouldn’t have tried anything against a man with both shardblade and bodyguard.
I’m not sure whether a dark-eyed man has any legal recourse for himself against a light eyes but Elhokar would be in charge of a trial and given his propensity to seek advice from Kaladin he likely would ask Skar if Sadeas made a threat against his and Dalinar’s lives.
Unfortunately Adolin didn’t kill him in a room full of witnesses in a “oh he must have been justified if he did it right in front of us” manner. He did it in private in an abandoned corridor with no witnesses then hid the body.
Alas, those are the actions of a murderer with a guilty conscience, not a man defending his father and his king. He will have a much harder time clearing his name now.
@@.-@ Braid_Tug…. for some reason I wondered why you thought that one gender could only speak in metaphor and exaggeration, then I read your comment again. I’m still chortling at myself.
I believe I’ve mentioned this before, but I smell a Red Herring. It’s not a very subtle link between the title of this chapter, the excerpt from Words of Radiance, and the gems mentioned by Sadeas, and the personality and voice of Adolin.
The first thing you read is the chapter title which is then found in the first sentence of the epigraph. The first word in the chapter is Adolin. Adolin who loves to duel, is hot-blooded, and is infatuated with Shallan. And we all know she is a bit odd and a bit of a novelty within Alethi culture.
But, because this is Brandon Sanderson, he has to throw in that bit about Sadeas’ uncut gems, making me confused and frustrated. Which is the misdirect, Sadeas, the epigraph, or both?
It would be much more awesome if he could revive his shardblade, but the evidence points to him becoming a willshaper, which is of course contingent on if Sanderson has him become a Radiant at all. Bah! When is the third book coming out?
@11: Minor correction: Adolin did not hide the body, he left it there. All he did was removed his stained clothing, throw Oathbringer by a window and erase his mark on the wall. You are right he will struggle to craft himself worthy defense, though Brandon had stated his actions did not violate the morality on Roshar. There is defense to be had for him, especially if Sadeas has been witness to utter threats. The argument could be made they were at war and Adolin was justified to murder him.
His guilty conscience will be a problem though, but I am rather convince he will speak the truth, eventually. The fact he hid the clues will weight against him, even if these were the action of a young man in shock and not the clever planning of a cold-blooded assassin.
@13: I do not think Adolin is Willshaper material… They were explorers and travelers whereas Adolin is more of a family man, enjoying being near his loved ones, not half a continent away. I do not see him as resolute either, as highlighted with his tendency to abandon his courtships rather easily: even Kadash lectures him on such. He is not a builder either: he does not strive to built anything or to rule over anything, he simply wants to take care of his loved ones. Every single of his actions happen because he either cared or loved, never because he is resolute. As for liking odd Shallan… well… let’s not forget Adolin has a foreign mother. He himself is not the poster-boy for the perfect Alethi looking boy: he is a half-blood which seem to have inherited most of his mother’s looks (never once is it commented that Adolin share any physical resemblance with Dalinar). He was also raised by this foreign mother, so yeah it is possible he may have been looking for something… different, but not because he loves oddity, but because he is different.
@wcarter: I feel like if Adolin attacked Sadeas here he wouldn’t be able to kill him before people intervened – if Adolin was going to attack Sadeas it would be either a sudden attack, which means it would be another brawl, or he would summon his Shardblade (and I bet you Sadeas would have his ready at the same time, it’s pretty easy to look for holding that hand out). And while Adolin wouldn’t be hurt this time, Sadeas is still enough of a soldier to hold on long enough for any of his supporters to lend him a hand and pull Adolin off. The bridgemen might even do so: they hate Sadeas, sure, but their first loyalty is to Dalinar and they would know that he would not approve Adolin trying to murder Sadeas and flouting laws and honor to do so.
You could even use this scene to wonder if a subconscious part of Adolin is already darker than it seems: what if he’s not holding back here because he has enough willpower left to follow Dalinar’s ideal path, but because he doesn’t think he’d be successful and then he would have wasted his later chance to try to execute Sadeas in a duel?
Not that I think that’s why – the line where he reflects on how he needs to wait to get Sadeas in a duel first stands out to me as the reason why Adolin is able to hold out: right now there’s hope he can do what he wants (end Sadeas) in a completely legal way fairly soon in the future if he plays his cards right. This won’t be an option by the end of the book when it’s been postponed to a year later (give or take a few weeks).
@14 Gepeto
Shoot you’re right it was Oathbringer he hid. My mistake. Still not an act that is easily justified in court, and considering the blade’s worth to their society, not much better than hiding the body (hopefully not worse).
@15 FenrirMoridin
Good point about possible intervention.
His successfully killing Sadeas here would probably have been dependent more on whether he was carrying his knife on him rather than on his Shardblade (at least at first). It’s what he eventually used to actually kill the man with anyway after all.
So there are a lot of questions to go along with this hypothetical:
Does Adolin always carry a knife? If so, how quickly could he draw it and stick it between Sadeas’s ribs?
Would Skar try to stop him or help him (again in this scenario Adolin would have verbally accused Sadeas of treason, not just attacked)?
Were any of the society types sober enough to react to the noise and intervene themselves? And lastly, would they even care to try to stop it or just “enjoy the show?”
As for their duel, I doubt Sadeas ever had any intention of actually fighting Adolin in a legit duel. He likely either planned on having him, Dalinar and Elhokar all taken out prior to the date, or if he did have to duel, he would have found a way to cheat. Massively.
Anywho I feel like I’ve more than worn out this hypothetical now so I’m just going to sit back and enjoy everyone else’s comments for a while.
@wcarter: Well that was why they ended on the idea of forcing Sadeas into a duel on the spot…sadly we see how that goes. I agree though, once Sadeas set the duel for a year later there was no way it’d work out well for them, which is part of why Adolin snaps (he can’t really tell himself “later I can fix this”).
As for the heraldic symbolism, I had a thought: one Palah for Renarin makes sense, but I think the second Palah being for Sadeas also makes sense and not just because of the emeralds. As twisted as Sadeas is, he likes to think of himself as a potential father figure to Adolin, since in his mind Dalinar is not appropriate for it. Sadeas considers himself the “Learned” Alethi Highprince, “Giving” Adolin important life lessons in the harsh political culture of the Alethi Highprinces. Maybe the second Palah is there to stand in for Sadeas in the corrupted sense of heraldic symbolism.
@15: I have a different reading as to why Adolin is able to hold on in this chapter, but loses it later on. I do not know if I’ll be able to find the proper words to explain it in a convincing manner, but I’ll give a go.
Adolin is an emotionally driven person, which implies his spontaneous reaction to any unpredictable situation is first emotional, than rational, but before he gets to rationalize it, he first needs to deal with his emotions. We see at work a few times: when Sadeas insult his family early in WoK, Adolin rapidly gets angry and needs to sooth himself down before he can acknowledge he was not acting right; after Szeth’s attack, he is afraid, angry at himself and he won’t let go of the emotions even if he knows he is acting irrationally; when Shallan presents him her idea to coax Sadeas into a duel, he gets over-excited and happy, he forgets to think and traps himself into an unpaired match. There are many examples on both books where Adolin is seen to react very emotionally which made him being described as impulsive. So yes, Adolin is impulsive, when he is prey to his own strong emotions. When his head is cool and he fights within known ground: he does not display the same impulsiveness. Adolin is therefore what I would call an emotionally impulsive guy.
Emotions are the key, not rational thought. Adolin never has rational thoughts when he is emotional response is in first gear.
That being said, how does it truly work for an extroverted emotional person? Imagine your brain. Imagine there is a glass inside your brain and it has a tiny hole at the bottom. When the glass is empty, you can hear your brain telling you the voice of reason, but as soon as it starts to fill in, it gets dampen. Water is the emotions. New, unexpected situations trigger emotions which flow into the glass. They flow away through the tiny hole at the bottom, but as long as there is water, rational thoughts are difficult if not impossible. The more water, the less possible it is to hear those rational thoughts. You understand rather quickly the water can accumulate itself much faster then it flows out. The good news is there are other holes into the glass, but they are dependent on the emotions at hand. Positive emotions make more holes, negative removes them.
So what happens to Adolin in chapter 50? He just walked out of a date with beautiful Shallan and it went brilliantly. He is happy. Here comes Sadeas with his taunting and his negativeness. Of course, Adolin’s reaction is highly emotional: he threatens to skewer him and thinks it may even be a good idea if he actually does it…. but he remains pretty much in control. Why? His glass is not yet full, better even, he has all of those extra holes he got from the happy date. In other word, his current mood is such he does not struggle so much to deal with the Sadeas taunting.
In comparison, what happens in the last chapter? Adolin had just walked out of a bad fight: he got injured, he lost his Rhysadium and he saw he father flew to an near death, but if that was not enough, he was confronted to a new hidden city, the return of the Radiant, the fact his beloved betrothed is one of them… he was unsettled. His thoughts shortly before the encounter were those of a young man struggling to cope, he wandered alone, thinking on what it all meant for him and found little answers. In other words, his inner cup was already nearly full. He was already dealing with other thinks when he stumbled on Sadeas who taunted him some more. Worst, he blatantly told him he would never stop and there is nothing he could do about it. That was it. It was the drop, the additional flow that made the glass overflowed. He lost it. He let the emotions speak for him and it resulted in a brutality previously unseen with him.
So my reading is Adolin does not hold up in this chapter because of his willpower, but because he was in the right state of mind to take in the attack and cope with it. I do not think it hides any darkness, but I think it underlines Adolin has been bottling up many emotions and has develop little coping mechanism of his own. He exploded and I think he is going to explode again because he is not done.
This is my reading, I hope I managed to convey adequately the right idea: it was because of the emotions. The very thing that makes him so caring, loving and emphatic also is what makes him very vulnerable to other more negative emotions (or positive, the 4 on 1 duel shows us the positive one can also cause issues).
@16: I do agree Adolin hiding the clues will get him into trouble. How though it not clear.
I think it is safe to assume Adolin always carries a knife. He carried his side sword to the date… he probably had his knife as well.
I also agree Sadeas had no intention of fighting Adolin in a fair fight. He is not a fool: he noticed Adolin’s skill: he won’t risk it, but I’d think Sadeas would prove to be a much more difficult opponent than Adolin thinks… I am slightly sad we did not get that duel.
Oh my! This chapter just put a little crack in my heart. :-( The tiny bit of darkness that began at The Tower when Sadeas betrayed the Kholins is expanding. And sadly, it has to happen right after Adolin had that romantic moment with Shallan.
For the first time, I’m seeing why Adolin has to be blonde. He is the “golden boy”, the perfect one. Everyone around him is broken – Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Renarin, even Elhokar and Navani. Adolin might not have had a perfect childhood, but he had kept his sense of humor and actually, he is almost flawless except his reputation as a player.
And his blade is an Edgedancer’s blade. I did not put any significance to it except that he might be a proto-Radiant, but now, it gave me an ominous feeling. :-(
Adolin has to die or be reforged or do a Darth Vader for him to awaken all the spren that “died” during the day of Recreance. And that means Adolin has to be broken first. He has to earn that title of sacrificial lamb or else it will not mean anything to the readers, including me though it will break my heart. :-(
And the sad part is that he has to do it alone. He already lost Sureblood, his Rysidium (sp?). He can lose Shallan either because of himself or lose her to Kaladin, and then he will lose the respect of Dalinar and Renarin because of what he did to Sadeas. Adolin will truly be a man apart. :-(
Arghhhhhhhhhh!!!! I hope I’m wrong. But, I cannot help myself but see all the elements of classical literature here – Beowulf, Greek mythology and Roman mythology. No, Brandon did not copy any of the heroes. Everyone is original but the elements are there.
And now, I’m beginning to understand why Adolin has to be reforged. It it meant he has to die and then “resurrected”. But to use Shallan and Adolin’s own words, “it has to be spectacular.”
*sigh* I think I’ll just enjoy Adolin now and be with him when Brandon decides to reforge him.
@18 Gepeto: While I agree his emotional state here helps, as the only explanation I think it’s rather inadequate for why he holds off – Adolin himself admits he doesn’t want to interact with Sadeas in the chapter presumably because it was after a happy date, so as positive as his background mental state is Sadeas immediately poisons it. Adolin resolves himself to not kill Sadeas, stopping himself from summoning his Blade, by focusing on how he’s working on getting Sadeas in a duel. I do agree though that Adolin’s emotional state is much more vulnerable by the end than it is here, which definitely contributes.
@19: Adolin is the classic Prince Charming trope: riding on his white stallion, with his glistening armor and his magic sword. Handsome, nice, bond headed in a sea of black, until the horse dies and his armor starts to crack. Bringing down such a character down is an extremely interesting exercise and I hope Brandon will stay away from the classic demanding he goes evil simply because emotions have always been viewed as negative in literature.
Yes, there is anger, but there also is love… which is even more powerful. I personally do not think Adolin should head dark because it would mean, for him, to betray his loved one, to forsake the one thing that kept him going all this years: the love he bears his father and his brother. This is so central to Adolin I failed to see how he could lose it all…. even when put against the wall (the Tower, the 4 on 1 duel, Sadeas) he acts out of love.
Once he crashes down (that’s the predictable outcome), I expect to see him keep on trying simply because he cares too much to let go. Basically, the kind of behavior an Edgedancer spren would nod on. The “Adolin will revive his Blade and become an Edgedancer” is the most endearing theory of all, but you have to give it a chance to grow on you. Most people frown upon reading it first and most people’s first guess was rather different (my own was very different). It also requires to make an in-depth analysis of Adolin to truly see it.
I agree though that whatever happens to Adolin will be spectacular.
@20: This is exactly the point: the reason he is able to hold of is because he is able to listen/hear to his rational self. We all agree it was the right decision, to wait for the right moment, not here and now. Adolin is able to hear it and to act on it because his inner cup is empty enough for him to do so.
At the end, his little cup is so full he just over-flows. He does not even have the thought he shouldn’t be doing this. He can’t have that thought. The second he tried to tap into anger: he lost it. Anger is a powerful emotion: it completely nullifies all rational thoughts and it makes actions feel justified, by once it wears out, the backlash is awful. The guilt, the horrible feeling of having done wrong is just difficult to bear.
You can find the same pattern within many real life people even if “acting out of anger” rarely means killing someone, but more saying things you do not mean or ripping out a failed exam or kicking a printer (anyone saw Office Space?)…
In other words, I do think it will turn out Adolin did a right thing by killing Sadeas as he effectively removed a threat the Kholins have fail to deal with, but he did it the wrong way by losing control of himself. He’ll need to learn control. So far, his only control mechanisms were either Dalinar’s orders or Renarin’s quiet presence. This won’t work in the long run: it has to come from him.
Personally, I love the fact Adolin is so emotional… as characters exhibiting this behavior are rarely portrait in a positive manner. Too often, they are villains as anger is always seen as negative, but it does not always have to be so. Anger can be positive and the absence of anger can be negative. I hope Adolin will be able to make the difference and effectively do what Dalinar wished early on in WoK: learn to channel his emotions in a positive manner.
@Gepeto: I’d hate to belabor this point especially as we’re mainly discussing this in regards to a chapter far down the line, so I’ll be brief – I’d argue that while Adolin’s emotional complexion changes by the ending, that isn’t the sole reason driving what happens. Adolin sets himself up to snap in the ending, and while I don’t think that was 100% intentional, I doubt it was 100% unintentional either. YMMV of course, which I’m sure it will!
As an aside, on reflection I like the misdirection with the Stormwatch date being in the Weeping when there shouldn’t be a highstorm. It first appears to obviously buck tradition of there being the obvious pathetic fallacy of a huge storm happening on a momentous event. But now that the idea is dismissed (and in a way that is so authentic we trust it implicitly), it makes it more impressive when we end up getting two storms on this day instead! Furthermore, Dalinar mentions it would be “too convenient,” which we see is both the case and not the case: the Highstorm the Stormfather rushes is convenient for making Szeth and Kaladin an extraordinarily powerful battle (as they can have constant Stormlight), but it’s inconvenient because without it refilling their gems once Dalinar and the others Oathgate out they would have been safe from Szeth, except for the Highstorm! It’s great how Sanderson can layer playing something straight and subverting it on top of each other and make you wonder which one we’re supposed to walk away with more.
@2AndrewHB: Late to respond to this, but I wonder if Honor also has trouble seeing the future because Honor is by its nature much more rigid and defined than Cultivation. While you can plan out Cultivation, you’re bringing out elements of a thing, which means you need to leave room to grow (literally and figuratively, heh). Honor is more setting down rules to live by and then trying to shape life to fit inside the parameters you established.
Alice, thanks for clearing up the bridgemen descriptions. Every time I read about a bridgeman with grey hair, like here, I assume it’s Teft.
Gepeto@6 Adolin is definitely bothered by the highstorms but he’s not the only one. This is in the same chapter:
Now this is in Adolin’s POV chapter so he might just be assuming everyone feels the same as he does.
@22: I do not think the way Adolin channeled his anger was totally unintentional. He needed to deal with Sadeas: he threatened those he loves and he had not other resources. He was unable to think of much else at the time. Let’s call it the drop that made the glass toppled. However, I do think he snapped because he had too many emotions to deal with at the time and he couldn’t cope with the load Sadeas dropped on him.
In my reference to old times movie Office Space, one of the guys has a bad day. I do not recall the exact string of events but it accumulates with the printer refusing to… print. Now those who were around in those years will recall how inefficient the devilish machines used to be. The poor guy then starts to lose it on the printer in front of the bewildered look of his co-workers. Would the guy had react the same had he not have had a crappy day to begin with? Probably not. The guy is Adolin, the printer is Sadeas. There is also a famous later scene where the guy extract revenge on the printer by trashing one in a field…………….. Anyway, I used the example to illustrates how I perceive Adolin big break down because that’s exactly what I think it was: a nervous break down. He cracked under the pressure. After all this time spend coping and dealing, not talking how he truly felt about the ordeal, keeping his anger/frustration/fear bottled up inside, led to this fastidious scene in one of his most vulnerable moment.
@23: This is not the only times Adolin comments on his unease during highstorms. At the time, I read it s a foreshadowing he would end up stranded in one. Guess I was completely wrong about this one, but there was enough mention of it to make me ponder about it.
It probably does not mean anything, but I have filed it as something of interest. I am keen to see if it’ll become relevant later on.
He also is clearly disturbed by the countdown on the wall. much more than Dalinar or Navani. I have wondered why badass duelist and war leader Adolin seemed so afraid of storms and the idea of one popping during the weeping combined to mere glyphs scratched on a wall….. Maybe it means nothing, but I have taken notes of these small things.
@@@@@ 2 AndrewHB and 22 Fenrir Moridin
While FenrirMoridin’s answer is logical, and indeed makes perfect sense. I feel like there may be a still deeper truth lurking underneath.
After some thought and research (read: watching 21 and Ocean’s Eleven back to back while consuming copious amounts of alcohol), I think I’ve come up an answer to your question.
The short version? Honor was only moderately good at math as a human while Cultivation, Odium and a couple others were skilled enough to able to perform complex calculations in their head.
The long answer? Well after my fourth drink, I had an epiphany. If you have time (and believe me this will not be a quick read) I shall now reveal what I believe to be what’s really going on throughout The Entire Cosmere! *takes another sip* Ahem:
1. A long time ago there was a group of people who formed a brilliant plan to get rich by using their l33t skillz to knock over the Adonalsium Casino, the biggest most financially powerful casino of all time, and split the fortune between them.
2. Local authorities learned of this plan and special agent Midius–codenamed Hoid hand picked a young by-the-book officer named Tanavast, who was familiar with many casino games and their rules, to infiltrate their organization.
3. Tanavast had a modest grasp of card counting. He used his natural charm and easygoing nature to gain acceptance into the group by the kind and generous Ati, the bank roller of the operation.
4. Hoid, acting as Tanavast’s handler met him at a local tavern every thursday for updates on the group’s activities in order to keep the Casino’s owner apprised of the situation.
5. The group planning their operation and honed their skills in regular meetings over the course of several months, carefully preparing for the big day.
6. During these meetings, Tanavast eventually fell with Reya, whose superior skills at card counting and and ability to think ahead allowed her to get the better of many of the others during their practice games.
7. It was Reya who eventually decided the best way to hit the casino would be in four, four man teams either manipulating games or distracting casino staff based on their specialities.
8. Tanavast was placed in the card counting group that would infiltrate the blackjack tables along with Reya, and two other men named Rayse and Leras.
9. Rayse, who had had a crush on Reya for some time, began to grow jealous of the burgeoning relationship between Tanavast and Reya.
10. Rayse followed Tanavast to the bar one night after their regular meeting and saw him buying Hoid a drink.
11. Rayse immediately recognized Hoid from dossiers the group had on all casino security staff. He became suspicious of Tanavast, whose only average card counting skills did not match up with the supposed exploits of his cover identity.
12. He brought his suspicions to his friend Bavadin, they decided not to tell the others so Tanavast would not realise his cover had been blown, and they began to plot of a way to get rid of him.
13. As the day of the operation grew closer Tanavast also grew closer to members of the crew. Coupled with his minimal salary as a cop and Hoid’s tendency to wander off or give him vague instructions, he began to grow frustrated. Maybe he really should knock over the casino with everyone else he thought.
14. The big day finally arrived. At first, everything went according to plan.
15. The team was able to get into the invitation only casino using faked credentials made by team specialist Aona.
16. Edgli, a professional entertainer, kept the team apprised of the locations of all the floor staff, and distracted not only them but other other gamblers with brilliant singing and colorful costumes.
17. And the rest of the crew proceeded to cheat, lie and steal their way to a fortune using counterfeiting, slight of hand, card counting, hacking, sabotage and in one odd case a small handful of sand carefully thrown into the eye of a dealer about to catch on.
18. The crew believed that everything was going according to plan, but unbeknown to them, the owner of the casino, a man in a lizard skinned suit nicknamed Frost for his peerless poker face had been watching them on camera the whole time thanks to a tip from Hoid.
19. Rather than have them arrested, Frost instead simply observed, his own brilliant plan begain to utilize the cunning and creativity of the crew to gain even more money for the Casino.
20. Tanavast was torn up inside as the team made their getaway. What was he supposed to do? His first loyalty was to the law, but the Casino was had all this money but was just hoarding it rather than using it for good. Meanwhile several members of the crew planned to use their shares for altruistic purposes.
21. He went to ground along with the the rest of the crew as they waited for the heat to die down
Frost began to research into the members of the crew. He quickly ascertained Tanavast true identity and contacted him through Hoid to arrange a meeting.
22. Frost confronted Tanavast with the information on the heist and demanded that he testify in court or resign his position with the force and go to jail.
23. Tanavast decided that he had to do what was right, and begged Frost to consider a plea deal–thus playing into the man’s hand.
24. Frost offered the crew a choice, they could keep the money they stole and in return use it to start their own casinos, a portion of the profits of which would go to Adonalsium Inc., or they could all go to prison.
25. The crew took Frost’s offer and began choosing locations for their new casinos. Some members of the crew decided to work as teams in order to start larger businesses right off the bat, while others chose to go it alone seeker greater personal profit.
26. Upon learning that Tanavast and Reya were going together to start up a small franchise called the Roshar, Rayse became enraged and offered to join them secretly planning to kill the other man.
27. After seeing how much in love Tanavast and Reya were, as well as how close several other former members of the crew were with her, Rayse couldn’t take it anymore. He would show them. He decided he would kill them all.
First, he contacted his former partner Bavadin and told him his intentions.
28. Then he went to the Sel Casino and killed their former partners Skai and Aona. He then burned their remaining shares in spite and left the Casino in shambles.
29. He returned to the Roshar’s primary location and began to replace Tanavast and Reya’s employees.
Reya learned of her friends’ deaths and contacted Frost for help. Rayse saw this as the final betrayal and attacked her with the intent to kill.
30. Tanavast jumped in and fought with Rayse but was ultimately killed when the man pulled out a hidden knife.
31. Frost arrived along with the authorities in time to stop him from killing Reya.
32. Sensing he could still be used to make money he decided not to have him arrested on the spot. Instead he threatened to take away Rayse’s fortune unless he complied a restraining order imprisoning him at one of the Casino Roshar’s smaller locations.
33. Hoid, upon learning of his former officer’s demise became enraged and began searching for clues have his murderer locked away forever. He traveled to the various casinos searching for clues and using his skills picked up from observation made money from each of the houses to continue funding his search.
*Takes another sip* Yup it all makes perfect sense now…
I have wondered why badass duelist and war leader Adolin seemed so afraid of storms and the idea of one popping during the weeping combined to mere glyphs scratched on a wall
Storms and prophecies are not problems you can solve with a sword. Fighting is something Adolin is good at, but he has no control over storms or magic.
@26: Interesting comment… It makes sense: Adolin is nervous/stressed/anxious/fearful in front of situations he is powerless to change/control/fight. This totally befits his personality type and it does fuel my previous argumentation about his self-confidence which is tightly linked to his fighting ability or his particular skill-set. It is thus important he remains good, as the second he starts to doubt his fighting ability, his world starts to crumble as illustrated by his failed Blade throwing experiment (a scene I wish to ask Brandon about as I cannot shake from my head it means something).
Therefore, as long as he is in his element, he thrives, he keeps his head cool and he does not get overloaded by emotions as he had already dealt with similar situations. Put him out of it and he gets rushed by his own emotional response and his thinking ability gets reduce. All in all, he learns a lot through personal experiences, much like Dalinar.
He also always exhibit the same primary responses. When he is faced with a situation he is merely uncomfortable with or powerless to control: he gets stressed and nervous as highlighted by his Blade summoning/dismissing tic and his entire chain reaction in WoK towards his father’s visions. When he is faced with a situation he can take actions on (and he believes he is right), but is prevented from because of rules/codes, he gets angry and frustrated.
@25wcarter: bravo!
And now I kind of want to watch some heist stuff…or I could break out the first Mistborn book and (slaps self) no, must not lose myself in too many Sanderson books being reread at once.
@27 FenrirMoridin
Thanks!
Drunk me kind of scares sober me with how severely he can overthink what was supposed to be a simple joke with as many cosmere references as he could think of.
I see the thread has been taken over by the Adolin fan girls again….Enough fawning already!
Hey, this is open to whatever discussion we want to have.
– If you don’t like what’s posted, that’s what your scroll bar is for. Slide right on by… no one will question you.
– If you have something else you want to talk about, start the conversation.
@30: I apologize, but this is an Adolin chapter and so were the last few. Sadly there are still quite a few of those to come in the near future as well. I see people discussing all sort of subjects I am not personally interested in on this thread and others, but I do not see fit to comment negatively on it as you did.
People should be allowed to discuss what they feel needs to be discussed concerning the chapter at hand, but I apologize if I have inadvertently monopolized this thread and the one before. I had been waiting for these chapters to come for such a long time… If I could have this discussion in private only with those interested such as not to pollute the thread and leave place for more “worthy” subjects than the characters in the book, I would gladly to it.
I will try to post less even if I felt I was only responding to those who responded to me, but I will relent.
I am sorry about this.
Gepeto – stop worrying, don’t apologize, and don’t try to stop commenting. You post what you want. As noted above – no one is obligated to read every word of every post. It’s not like we’re hitting 1000 comments and breaking the servers; there’s plenty of room for whatever discussion we want to have.
If someone would like a different topic of conversation, they are always free to begin the discussion; there’s no need to sneer at someone else’s conversation. We’ve got room for it all.
So a question lurking in my head……Dalinar takes responsibility for the glyphs on the wall, is Renarin there also at that moment, because if he was there it seems strange he didn’t mention that maybe HE was the one writing on the wall. After all everyone seems ok with Dalinar if he was the one, so why wouldn’t he say something. Or at the least take his father aside privately and talk with him about it?
Gepeto please don’t stop commenting ! I have really enjoyed all your comments (as well as others) and analysis of Adolin as a character.
radiantflower @34 – I’ve wondered about that too. My best guess is that Renarin “knows” what Adolin says out loud – the Vorin belief that seeing the future is a Voidbringer thing, and he’s not ready to confess to it. Dalinar has already weathered the “maybe it’s a Voidbringer thing” storm, and it doesn’t bother him because he knows the source of his visions.
I don’t think Renarin was there during this conversation; at least, he’s not mentioned. However, I think he would be relieved to hear Dalinar take the responsibility. With Dalinar’s background, everyone he cares about will take the warning seriously; at the same time, he doesn’t have to “out” himself as being associated with Voidbringing. Everyone wins.
That’s my best call on it so far, because no one ever sees anyone do the writing until Renarin is so overwhelmed with it all that he asks why the Almighty cursed him this way and starts writing zeros on the wall of the Oathgate.
I’d sure love to hear any other ideas, though…
You all are right. I concede.
I apologize. This is a open space where you can share whatever thoughts you would like and perhaps I spoke prematurely. I don’t mind the analysis of Adolin’s character or theories regarding him (in fact I think Gepeto has said some very interesting things), I just don’t like trying to hunt for those good nuggets amidst so much fawning over him.
But as I said, you all have every right to post as much as you’d like, and I really don’t want you (Gepeto) or anyone else to feel like you can’t post what you want. Don’t stop commenting. I hope you’ll accept my apology.
Maybe I’m just bitter because I can’t think of anything better to discuss as you mentioned Wetlandernw.
@@@@@ Gepeto, please feel free to continue to comment Adolin or any other topic hits your interest within the chapters. t’s not a zero-sum game where we have to take away from one group’s conversations to give time to another.
@@@@@ Shardme, since you don’t want to talk about Adolin (which is perfectly fine), is there any particular topic you do want to hit on from this chapter? There’s a lot of meat in this section of the book, so I would enjoy hearing your opinions/theories on pretty much anything.
@@@@@34 Radiantflower, that bothered me the first couple of times I read that section. I think Renarin may have actually been with the Bridge Four crew at the time. On the other hand, whether or not he was there for that one incident, he had to have been there for at least some of them.
I don’t know enough about how someone on the Autism spectrum like Renarin would handle the pressure of telling Dalinar that the prophesies are his when they are obviously a major point of stress for the man. For that matter, it wouldn’t be easy for anyone, especially in a society/religion where seeing the future is equated with (demonic) Voidbringers.
@32 No need to apologize and please continue posting. :-) You are right, this is an Adolin chapter so we will talk about him.
@31 Thank you!!!
@Everyone – please believe me when I say that I do enjoy this forum. And that is coming from the bottom of my heart. Thanks Alice for writing this re-reads. This keeps me sane.
You have no idea how much it pains me to read the tirade between Caitlyn Jenner and Kim Kardashian at the Los Angeles Times of all places!!! :-( But I have to read it because my RL job demands that I keep up with all the social media stuff.
That said, again… I want to reiterate, this forum keeps me sane. :-) I enjoy reading about Adolin, Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar and company. Syl and Pattern make me laugh too. :-)
Again,
I sincerely apologize to anyone I offended. I can see now that my words were callous and wrong. I’d rescind my comments if I knew how.
@@@@@ wcarter, (good mediating skills by the way) The thing I find most interesting/worrisome about this chapter is the attempt by Sadeas to turn Adolin to the “Dark Side”. Knowing how Adolin does end up snapping and murdering Sadeas later I’d say his attempts may be working (He had to give his life to do it). This seems like the standard way to turn a hero. Provoke them SO MUCH that they end up sinking to the level of their enemies, then once they are at that level it is easier to keep going down that path. The guilt and shame help harden the hero into thinking he can’t be a hero anymore….and the cycle continues.
I hope this doesn’t happen (I do like Adolin) and sometimes Brandon likes to turn fantasy tropes on their head, so maybe he’ll accept his guilt and move on. But their is some foreshadowing that unnerves me a bit.
@Everyone – Random Question – what is the color of Adolin’s eyes? And Renaren too? And of course Dalinar? I’m just trying to figure out how much they got from their mother and how much they got from Dalinar in terms of looks. They have Dalinar’s height (the tall Alethi, as Shallan says). They got their mother’s blonde’s hair which Adolin got the lion’s share while Renarin just got a sprinkling. Both boys are handsome, so that means that they got their looks from their mother because Shallan had described Dalinar’s face as “unfortunate”. Adolin got Dalinar’s warrior physique, instincts and moves. Anyway, I am just trying to picture them in my head as a family.
@radiant Flower and @wcarter – I have often wondered about Renarin. Is his ‘blood sickness’ the Roshar name of autism? I get confused easily. And I really want to know. I know that Kaladin is trying to find out what is Renarin’s ‘sickness’ truly is, but I never read what Kaladin’s final analysis was.
Thanks.
@sheiglagh: The use of “blood sickness” is, as Kaladin describes later on (iirc), just a folk description for multiple kinds of illnesses, i.e. the thing you say when you need to explain you have some kind of condition but to just jump into specifics would probably leave 99% of people confused about what you mean (while just blood sickness gives you a basic enough gist). Renarin claims the term is used for his epilepsy, which appears to involve absence seizures, although it’s hard to know for sure: everyone seems to dance around it as it is an unhappy thing, so it’s easier to just give it a simple description and not delve into why it’s the way it is. I don’t think it involves his autism, as it seems like Roshar’s world still has a more antiquated system when it comes to mental medicine (unsurprisingly, as the Heralds could only give them so much and I imagine that had to take a backseat to the more important physical medicine to get people back up and on their feet to fight Voidbringers).
Also, rather sadly, Kaladin hasn’t had a chance to follow up with Renarin about his condition: Kaladin feels like there’s something off about how Renarin was talking about it, but Kaladin has a tendency to get carried away with his work. And when he thinks of it later on he’s in a bad state to pursue something like that, as it’s after the chasms, where Kaladin is either in poor health or busy with going somewhere.
Maybe if Kaladin gets back in book 3 (which I hope happens but who knows how long he’ll be separated) he’ll ask Renarin more about his condition…although I wonder if maybe Sanderson is holding those cards close to his chest, as Renarin is currently slated to be a future flashback character, and it’s possible Renarin’s epilepsy condition (not the autism) was the result of some kind of significant event.
@@@@@ Shardme 41 You’re absolutely right about Sadeas. The sad thing is, he is simply a product of the Alethi and Vorin cultures he grew up in. He actually believes that backstabbing and endless contests are what the Kingdom needs to be “strong”
In his mind the only way to save Adolin from his father’s “weakness” is to use him to embarrass Dalinar and the king in the short term, ssassinate the two older me, then get Adolin to “see the light” by getting him into Sadeas and remember how “fun” it is.
I guarantee you not one of the Alethi nobles could read Machiavelli’s “The Prince” (or rather have it ready to them by their wives) and not want it immediately included in Vorin religious canon.
They definitely wouldn’t realize that it was written as sarcastic satire instead of a book of good advice.
On a side note, the Alethi people must breed like rabbits because they follow a religion that encourages them to fight and kill each other en masse.
@@@@@ 42 Sheiglagh
Renarin’s blood sickness is a form of epilepsy. Confirmation that he is autistic came from a WoB. I’m not a doctor so I have no idea if they’re related.
Renarin and Truthwatchers:
I’m still going to preach caution in confusing what the reader knows, versus what the reader thinks they know, in regards to Renarin and Truthwatchers. The reader has limited knowledge regarding Renarin, his actions/abilities, whether/not he is a Truthwatcher (or just told that to Dalinar, Kaladin and Shallan) and what it is exactly that Truthwatchers do.
Brandon is very good in misdirection and letting the reader form the wrong assumption or belief based on questionable evidence, or based on an unreliable source presenting something as fact.
(In this case Renarin informing his father, written in a very vague fashion by Brandon:
If you’ve read any of Brandon’s novels, you should know to question any given information that has not been reasonably proven in the text; each novel of the Mistborn trilogy demonstrates this point again and again.
Having said all that, I won’t pretend to know why Palah’s symbol is up there twice.
@ALL: Thank you for your kind words. I know I get carried away at times, but I have truly spent a lot of time studying Adolin as a character and I wish to share. I like plenty of other characters, but it seems there is more things to discuss on Adolin. He is less finished…
@shardme: Apologies accepted. I suggest we bury the issue, pretend it never happened and more onto more constructive discussion. After all, there are worst things to be call than an “Adolin’s fan girl” ;-)
@36-38: When Adolin came back from his date, it was late. It was dark outside and he was yawning. It is quite probable Renarin had retired to his rooms. I do not know if he heard Adolin or not, but it is clear he refrained from talking due to his fear of being associated with the Voidbringers. Somehow, this made a strong impression on young Renarin and my thoughts have always been that one spent too much time with the Ardents… Their beliefs are more strongly ingrained in him which would explain why he takes so long to talk to his family. He knows he is a Radiant, he knows his father is looking for them, but he does not speak. Why? Fear. Religion. These are my guess.
@39: I feel for the futility your line of work forces you to be acquainted with.
@41: On the matter of tropes, I feel Adolin is not one of the tropes Brandon usually work with… If I go into his other books, he rarely writes extroverted emotional male characters: he tends to stick with the introverted troubled under-dogs or the introverted geeky man that eventually finds his voice. He has written a few of those, but none quite like Adolin. I thus doubt we should expect the classical interpretation of a standard trope with him. If it were the case, he would have never develop any depth, he would have never killed Sadeas and he would have die early on as he was supposed to.
Whatever trope Adolin was initially supposed to be, I think it is getting subverted as of all characters, he has had the most unexpected growth. Nobody predicted he would swing this way after WoK. Nobody. I went to read back some of the commentaries of that time and pretty much every single thing said about Adolin turned out being wrong.
@42: Ah the character’s physical description. I love this one. Here are few facts we have in books.
Both Adolin and Dalinar have blue eyes. Renarin’s eye color has not been canonized yet, in the sense Brandon has not decided it yet. We have a WoB on it, but I’d be hard pressed to fish it out. For my part, I have always assumed they were blue just like his father and his brother, but the fact Brandon is not saying tells me that no. I thus take it Adolin and Dalinar have the same eyes while Renarin must have his mother’s eyes.
For the rest, Adolin is described as very handsome, blue eyed, tall but not as tall as Dalinar (Dalinar states his son is smaller than him, Kaladin states he is nearly as tall as Dalinar and Dalinar later states the boy as grown as tall as him… which tells me he probably is about half an inch smaller, enough to tell, but not enough to make much difference), having a mop of naturally unruly golden hair sprinkled with a few black hair and he has a youthful face. A lot of people comment on Adolin’s hair, including this own father.
Dalinar is described as being tall, physically very imposing, blue eyed, black hair graying at the temples, not handsome (as in he was never called handsome, even in his youth), a large nose which was broken many times, unpleasant features in a general manner.
Renarin is described as having slender limbs, delicate hands, does not look his age… not much is said about him. It is never stated he is handsome: the fandom thinks he is handsome, but he could be as ugly as Dalinar, we do not know. WoB told us he has mostly black hair with a few golden locks.
This is about it, not much if you want to have a mental image of the family resemblance… Kaladin also describes Adolin as not being as physically imposing without his Shardplate, so I would revise your comment stating he has the same physical stature as his father. I do not believe he does. Many people describe Dalinar as being very physically imposing, but not Adolin. Dalinar is also very strong (a bull) and his fighting style seem to revolve around him using his brute strength. Adolin seems more athletic than his father, more limber, more agile and more quick. His fighting style seems to revolve around him using his endurance, his speed and his agility to defeat his opponents. He also is not as tall, which tells me Adolin does not have the same stature as his father but this is pure speculation. However, I do think the son is much better swords man than the father, much more agile and much more quick, but he does not possess his father massive brute strength.
My take has always been Adolin resembles more his mother and the men on his mother’s side whereas Renarin has more Dalinar in him. The kid did not inherit any physical stature due to a lack of training, but I suspect he is as tall as his brother/father.
@Renarin blood sickness: His little speech to Kaladin made me think his sickness is not as dire as we are being led to believe. I have thus come to the potential conclusion his family may have made a bigger deal out of it then it truly was. They prevented the kid from doing any physical exercise which seem as a too drastic measure for just a few none paralyzing fits that do not seem to occur very often. I get the feeling Renarin is annoyed by being forced to do nothing for fear he may have seizure and he does not seem to think they are this terrible… So I think the family may have been a tad too over-protective with him. It makes me wonder the circumstances into which they started…
I keep thinking about adding a list of “things that should be talked about but I didn’t” for each chapter…
@@@@@ Alice
It couldn’t hurt, but this is your sandbox. I’m just happy that you’re so eager to let us all play in it.
@@@@@ wcarter – Hey, that’s where all the fun is! :) The problem with that approach, though, is that everyone would have to go read the chapter in full and do their own research…
This is not an attempt to make Sadeas a more likeable person, but to understand him. When the Kholins and Sadeas ruthlessly established the Alethi kingdom with Gavilar as head, they were comparable in moral standing. Gavilar may not have gotten his hands as dirty as his brother and Sadeas, but he was an instigator and the leader of the trio. His moral standing did not improve much with his more recent advocacy of Nohadon’s rules since he was prepared to unleash the Voidbringers (the Parshendi gods) using his gem with that sinister light. The motivation for such a destructive act was, presumably, the same as Amaram’s to supposedly insure the return of the Heralds and the ascendency of the Vorin religious hierarchy. It is, of course, uncertain whether Gavilar would have actually done the deed since he was assassinated because of that revelation. That assassination precipitated Dalinar becoming a more thoughtful, responsible, and moral individual. Sadeas, however, did not moderate his ruthless ambition, and the change in Dalinar drove them apart. He, apparently, transferred some of his old affection for the Blackthorn, his comrade in arms, to the son and heir. It is a way to rationalize his frank discussion of plans with Adolin. He appears to be attempting to educate the young man in the ways of power (a rather different version of the Way of Kings). Perhaps he wishes only to develop a worthy opponent against whom he must contend for rule. However, I am more inclined to the view that he harbors a certain affection for Adolin, despite being prepared to see him slain in battle in that pivotal betrayal. While the current discussion lead only to Adolin’s anger, his later private frank conversation lead to his death.